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Author: Subject: Religious Discussion
The Womb
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posted on 3-3-2003 at 15:54 Reply With Quote
>Carl mate, this is actually a valid point for Christians, the gospel is the good news, the good news is Jesus Christ lives, Jesus was a man that lived a perfect life in the eyes of God, He died on the cross, and rose again. He died in our place, He was a ransom for us, the wages of our wrong with God, our rebellion from him is death, but we are saved from that through confessing Christ as our Lord and saviour. Jesus was victorious over death, and lives now and will live forever in Lordship over heaven and earth because of that victory(Matthew 28:18). Acknowledging Jesus as your saviour and Lord is acknowledging that he rules over everything, and we should obey him to be able to be in His kingdom. To some Christians, religion is a crutch, but belief in Jesus and the realisation that He is Lord is not a crutch, if we allow Him to rule over all aspects of our lives, then this is no crutch but a pair of wings. We also must realise that Jesus was God too, God's wrath had to be sated, the debt of sin had to be paid, thats the wonder of God's love, that sent of Himself to save us from Himself. Belief in the cross and resurrection is everything, because it is Christ and God's victory over death and sin: confessing Jesus as Lord and believing in that is that which saves us, we are freed from judgement, we are freed from sin's hold on us, continued examination of the cross is the realisation that we must fear God, so that we endeavour to become like Christ, and love Him so that we endeavour to become like Christ.

I don't even know where to start...

But how about - what reasons do you have for thinking that the above statements are really how things are, and not just a bit list of things that aren't true?

I will get around to replying to your previous post, just as soon as I've spliff-tested the new Blur LP.






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xjohnx
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posted on 3-3-2003 at 16:30 Reply With Quote
i figure its the same as anything in life, until you have experienced it, it is difficult to understand (eg if you had not experienced an emotion, what logical reason would you have for beleiving them to exist, as an unemotional being you would beleive all emotional beings to be suffering from delusions). Faith is beyond logical explanation just as human emotions are beyond purely logical explanation (well i suppose some people would debate that but hey thats a different arguement)

However, just because we don't beleive in christianity/god doesn't mean we shouldn't try to understand or empathise with that beleif, unless you understand what drives a human being you'll probably end up just tagging them as evil or mad which will do nobody any good.
They can tag us as mad or evil in the same way, that wouldn't help either.

I have no beleif in god, and i have no need, wish or desire to be a christian but i can still empathise with that person and try to understand why they beleive what they beleive, we are all humans afterall.

There is mild scientific evidence to support the existence of a god, ie mathmatical difficulty in protein alignment, minor gaps in evolutionary theory, big bang theory etc etc but i choose to beleive that this 'proof' is caused simply through lack of current human scientific knowledge to sufficiently understand or sufficiently explain some events.
Look at our knowledge 600 years ago....as you can see we had no explanation for many now rationally understood evnts.
There is scientific evidence that proves parts of the old testament to be 'wrong' eg the existence of America the weirdness of the creation myth etc etc therefore I personally could not except the old testament as gods word (that and the fact it has several hundred contradictions and recommends appaling atrocities in the name of god)
I am not aware of too many major errors in the new testament tho.

peace
xjohnx






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The Womb
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posted on 3-3-2003 at 17:07 Reply With Quote
I'm stoned, and the new Blur album fucking rocks.

Hahaha I think I may be replying to the wrong thread.






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nymph
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posted on 3-3-2003 at 22:19 Reply With Quote
more comments on this delicious discussion

Hi new here...
anyway I've read all of the postings in one go - impressive huh?
As a born and raised Catholic, going to a catholic school as well, that didn't just teach catholiscism I have a fair amount of knowledge on many different kinds of religions. From Buddishm, Luthern church, Islam and primitive religions.
First of all I think it's important to know what you're talking about before you start critiscising others. We all know what ignorance leads to.
Well to get to the point: I think that by looking at what it is called primitive societies such as tribes in the Amazon or in Africa, you can get a fairly good idea about how this whole idea of God came to be. All tribes (i.e. societies) have a Creation and they are not that different at all. Humans are pretty much alike, right? We all have the same body, we all have to eat, our brains function more or less in the same way - and so it's not so strange that the idea (because that's what I believe religion is an IDEA, no more no less and some people just follow this idea to the extremes as we humans have a tendency to do) that what we have conjured is so similar across continents. Almost in all ideas of creation they start with some guy walking around and then meeting some women and they mate and voil√° - the human race begins. This man is usually created by some higher being, be it the sun or God - because how else would we be? It's not as if people in those places or in earlier time had a notion of DNA and evolutionary theory. People at that time needed to explain things that they couldn't and so they turned to metaphores, just to try and make sense of it all. These metaphores usually being given to them by some shaman or tribe's chief who had either been fasting for 40 days and nights or taken some hallucinogenic drugs. Then as time goes by these stories develop, and in some more evolved societies they start to be written down. Furthermore the Old Testament was more of an almanac for the Jewish people than anything else. The New Testament I'm pretty convinced to be a book trying to "sell" a bit more lenient God, because the hard, judging, wrathful God, wasn't going down that well with other religions of the time. Which at that time the romans where trying to tame and conquer. Mind you christendom has taken MANY of the ideas of the greek mythology (much related to paganism) and made them their own.
So my opinion when it comes down to it is that believe all you want in God, but you should also think about where the notion of God came.
Oh yeah, I've got one more point (at least) to make: Don't you guys find it rather puzzling that throughout time our whole point of view has been completely centralised. As in everything in the human society is placed in hierarchical order with one leader on the top? Whereas in nature, most things are decentralised? And wouldn't it be more appropriate to look for the answer in what really created us, instead of some mystical notion of a higher being laying out the rules?
And I really think it's nonsense to talk about picking out the suitable bits in a religion that fits you. Then you're NOT following that religion. If you don't believe in Hell then you're NOT a christian. You simply can't believe in God without believe in the Devil (Christianity being quite a "primitive" religion with its simplistic view of the world as being good vs evil - no such thing as grey area).
Religions ARE full of doctrines and if you don't follow them, then you're not following that religion, then you've created your own belief-system.
Oh - does anyone know where the ORIGINAL Bible is? No.

[Edited on 3-3-2003 by nymph]

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posted on 4-3-2003 at 04:04 Reply With Quote
does anyone know who the fukc nymph is? and why she's only posted one post. and it's a million lines long? and doesn't make sense? and is wrong? xx






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posted on 4-3-2003 at 15:47 Reply With Quote
Hey,
A lot of points to reply to and I am really tired so I'll try to answer them all. Anything i miss give me a heads up.

Carl: I appreciate your email and I hope that quoting from it isn't indiscreet in fact i'm sure u won't mind.

>>>>But it's (rainer maria's previous post) got little to do with what you quoted me as saying. I wasn't
talking about what God and Jesus was to people, such as yourself, who
obviously truly believe he is the truth. I was summarising the Womb's
statement about people who he claimed had a deluded belief, and I agree
with what he said. To summarize it again:

Womb was saying on the forum that some people who call themselves
Christians have never even considered or looked into themselves to see if
they really believe in God, Jesus and the bible. There are some who are
Christians through habit, and there are others who are Christians simply
because they cannot handle what it would mean if God did not exist, so
they 'decide' to believe he exists, which I'm sure you will agree is
very different to actually believing in him, and believing that the bible
is the truth. Such people may not know what they really believe in.
<<<<>>>>

Right, Carl, I feel that my response has everything to do with that position, maybe I didn't communicate it that well. Religion isn't belief. Religion is manmade, the gospel is from God, we as mortals can't understand it. The finite cannot fathom the infinite, but God deals with this in an amazing way, instead of leaving us all to die due to our own wrongs, He comes and lives as a man, rejects everything evil in the world and is crucified, by dying on the cross, God took our bullet so to speak, He took on all the wrongs that we have done and will ever do onto himself. He couldn't forget that debt, it had to be paid, because God is a good God and a just God. This is His good news, that we are freed in Christ, we can return to the purpose we were meant, to be embraced by God and live for His glory. He approved Christ's death by the ressurection, He set Christ at the head of all things, with dominion over heaven, earth, and death! For this reason, all things will be judged by Him. It isn't possible for me as a person to convince you of these truths because I am mortal and the message is not mine, that is why the Holy Spirit is needed for people to accept and fathom this love, this disparity between our lives we lead, and that of Christ, by confessing Christ as Lord we mean He is Lord over everything we do, and the Holy Spirit helps us do that, we acquire Christ's traits, his love, his patience, kindness, goodness, peace, gentleness, faithfulness, joy and self control, but the greatest of these is love, love for our fellow man to want them not to perish, or to be lost or a slave to themselves. As I said earlier we are freed in Christ's name: It has been glorified by God. This may seem like I am not answering your question Carl, but really what I am saying is that you are right, people don't realise the implications of the gospel, they don't understand it or if they did they have forgotten it, because when you look at the pro-active nature of God that He did come down to save us from Himself, and Jesus Christ being ruler over everything those implications make u with the help of the Spirit, police yourself!


Womb:
>>>>>>But how about - what reasons do you have for thinking that the above statements are really how things are, and not just a bit list of things that aren't true?
<<<<<<<>>>>>
Because I understand the gospel Al, if you look at 1Corinthians 1:18 "For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."
If you read on in those few verses Paul goes on to explain that the world couldn't understand Him, it pleased God through the "folly of what we preach to save those who believe. For Jews demand signs and Greeks demand wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles."

If you read the whole of chapter two maybe that will help u to understand how I understand!


xjohnx: Most of what I said earlier applies to your points too, I do agree with the anti-postmodernist nature of the sXe movement in some essences but it doesn't define me, I am no moralist, I know the truth in Christ Jesus, I don't judge others, because that with calls for people to be put right is God's gospel, not mine, people who engage in sex out of marriage, and just people who are convicted by wrongs with God are offended! And that's because it is an offensive gospel, its a call for us to just get back to what we were made for! We as Christians should and do not judge others, for judgement belongs to Christ, and the gospel does that for us.
I'm not sure what you mean by america etc... and the contradictions in the old testament, if you hand me something that you have issue with that would be cool. The old testament is relevant, it is God's promises that are fulfilled in Christ Jesus's coming and His gift of freedom. Further you mention atrocities, what things again are at issue.


Aargh! I realise how long this is, but please pick me up on points you feel i have neglected. I'm sure you will do so Al I look forward to it, again Carl I thank you for the email. Please think on these things because I really do know that they are issues of utmost importance, God Bless,

xstux





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posted on 4-3-2003 at 15:50 Reply With Quote
bit of a typo there, in the reply to xjohnx "not just people convicted of wrongs", I mean just=simply, not just=righteous.

sorry

xstux





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mojo
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posted on 4-3-2003 at 23:15 Reply With Quote
i have to say that i totally agree with everything stu says and i wish i was that well articulated! i'm glad someone is explaining themself better than i managed to! cheers stu

*mojo*






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Matt Paradise
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posted on 6-3-2003 at 03:01 Reply With Quote
Hmm, is this STill going?!?!





I often go to sleep with pyjama bottoms, socks and a t-shirt on. When I awake I am naked. This is a popular phenomenon, known in scientific circles as theft. My family members steal my clothes in the night and sell them down the market. I often walk to work and see kids wearing the clothes that only the night before I was sleeping in. It is a disturbing development.

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The Womb
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posted on 8-3-2003 at 17:17 Reply With Quote
Nymph is right. Stu still doesn't answer the question. Mojo is clutching at straws.






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posted on 8-3-2003 at 17:39 Reply With Quote
Nymph is right upto a point, much of the content of the bible and christianity was derived from ''pagan'' traditions.

If you don't except the idea that the bible is derived from god then its painfully obvious that the writers were influenced by ideas of the time..they were human beings afterall

For example even the use of the crucifiction as an image of redemption through suffering is adapted straight from mithrasism, mithras being a soldier god from the middle east who was worshipped extensively by the roman legionaires before the enforcement of christianity on the legions.

however nymph is not 100% right

noone knows where the original bible is
christianity was turned from a pacifist egalitarian cult into a state religion by rome in about ad 150
pre roman bibles should exist but they may have been doctored afterall the second most powerful state in the world (at the time) wanted its militant veiw of christianity put forward

Because the bible has been so doctored it is more possible to pick and choose what you wish to beleive.
Many aspects of modern christianity show a return to pre roman values as christianity has been segregated from the state.

peace
xjohnx

[Edited on 8-3-2003 by xjohnx]

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posted on 8-3-2003 at 18:18 Reply With Quote
Quote:
Originally posted by Matt Paradise
Hmm, is this STill going?!?!


my thoughts exactly

*mojo*





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The Womb
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posted on 8-3-2003 at 18:28 Reply With Quote
Well we can't all solve the secrets of the universe as quickly as you, Mojo...


I never met you the other night, as nobody pointed you out, but at least I now know who you are thanks to the photos posted in the other thread.






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mojo
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posted on 8-3-2003 at 18:32 Reply With Quote
yeah that's a bad pic.....i was the short one in blue, nr the front most of the time

*mojo*





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posted on 9-3-2003 at 13:45 Reply With Quote
I think there's a couple of shots of mojo in the events section too. Perhaps from Gigantic.






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posted on 10-3-2003 at 02:27 Reply With Quote
awww, i found this thing that quizzes you to find out how consistent your belief in god is.the only thing is, i knOW my belief in god isn't rationally explained. that's why it's so darned cool. if i could be explained like everything else, then it would just be another rational theory to life. but the fact that i can't be, yet is so rIght with it, just makes it fantastic.

[Edited on 10-3-2003 by **stargirl**]






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mojo
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posted on 10-3-2003 at 12:44 Reply With Quote
now that is one tough questionnaire thingy but very good.... i survived!

*mojo*





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The Womb
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posted on 11-3-2003 at 14:27 Reply With Quote
Has anyone seen www.godhatesfags.com? Hooray for Christians!






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iheartrainermaria
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posted on 12-3-2003 at 12:26 Reply With Quote
hmm....

from "God hates fags dot com"
<<<<<>>>>>
have been finally given up by God to uncleanness dishonoring their own bodies among themselves, to vile affections, and to a reprobate mind such that they cannot think straight about anything (Rom. 1:23-28),

<<<<<>>>>>

These guys seem to paraphrase a lot of the Word but not get much of the picture, so I have to doubt that they understand the nature of the gospel. In that section of romans, Paul is saying that we all as humans are completely fallible, have been and will be until Christ takes us, but the next chapter is Paul's point:
Romans ch2
"1You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2Now we know that God's judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment? 4Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?"

So I'd say ignore man's judgements, and listen to the good news of freedom through Christ, the opportunity to justified before God, to return to our original purpose: to be in relationship with Him, which our impurity doesn't allow, Christ is our intercessor on our behalf. Sorry about the jargon!!! I really am busy, but hopefully sometime this week I can write some stuff in reply to xjohnx and nymph. How slack am i?!?!

xstux

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The Womb
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posted on 21-3-2003 at 14:01 Reply With Quote
I had no idea at the time, but nymph is my girlfriend. Nice to know I'm going out with someone with so much sense.






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posted on 21-3-2003 at 15:08 Reply With Quote
Some points Nymph to do with the Bible:
The Holy Bible begins with the Jewish Scriptures. The historical record of the Jews was written down in leather scrolls and tablets over centuries, and the authors included kings, shepherds, prophets and other leaders inspired by God. In Exodus, God tells Moses to write the Law (Torah) in a book. About 450 BC, all of the Jewish scriptures were collected and arranged by councils of rabbis, who then recognized the complete set as the inspired and sacred authority of God. Beginning as early as 250 BC, the Hebrew Bible (Tenach) was translated into Greek by Jewish scholars in Alexandria, Egypt. The translation became known as the Septuagint, meaning 70, and referring to the tradition that 70 or 72 men comprised the translation team. At this point, the books of the Hebrew Bible were arranged by topic, including history, poetry, and prophecy. In 90 AD, at the Council of Jamnia, the Jewish elders established the final Hebrew Bible canon. Although the Jewish Scriptures were copied by hand, they were extremely accurate copy to copy. The Jews had a phenomenal system of scribes, who developed intricate and ritualistic methods for counting letters, words and paragraphs to insure that no copying errors were made. In fact, scribal tradition was maintained until the invention of the printing press in 1455. As far as manuscript accuracy, the recent discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls has confirmed the remarkable reliability of the Old Testament texts over the years.
Like the Old Testament, we now have significant evidence that the New Testament is remarkably accurate as compared to the original manuscripts. Of the thousands of copies made by hand before the printing press, we have approximately 24,000 manuscripts, including more than 5,300 Greek manuscripts from the New Testament alone. The Bible is better preserved, by far, than accepted writings of Homer, Plato and Aristotle. Of course, as the Bible was carried from country to country, it was translated into languages that don‚??t necessarily mirror the original languages of Greek and Hebrew. However, other than grammatical and cultural differences, God‚??s Word has been remarkably preserved and translated over the years

Christ's life, death and resurrection is even recorded by a Jewish Historian of the 1st century called Flavius Josephus mentions Jesus in Antiquities, Book 18, chapter 3, paragraph 3 (this paragraph is so phenomenal, that scholars now debate the authenticity of some of the more ‚??favorable‚?Ě portions of this text):

‚??Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.‚?Ě

Hmm, I need a break but will try to do some more stuff soon.





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posted on 21-3-2003 at 15:15 Reply With Quote
Will it never die!!!!!!!

(I blame The Womb!)






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